RE: Corporate Adventure Programs

I'm interested in hearing information about the market these days for corporate adventure training programs, also known as EBTD (Experience-Based Training and Development). My college is considering building a ropes course to support the adventure education academic program, and we're wondering how realistic it is to assume that a ropes course could also be a revenue generator for the college.

So, does anyone have information about the following?

• With the current economy, has there been a decrease (or increase) in corporate training and travel budgets and, therefore, a decrease (or increase) in corporate groups using ropes courses for their training needs?
• To what extent are corporate groups using ropes courses for their training needs, compared to other experiential activities that could be conducted in a meeting room?
• To what extent are corporate groups likely to travel over 200 miles for their training needs?

Thanks.

Hey Bobcat,

I'll start by saying that I don't have any cold hard data for you on the current status of corporate funding or willingness to utilize ropes courses for development. I do have a few potential thoughts for you though....

It sounds like you either attend/instruct at a university program that is developing new adventure educators. In my opinion, having a ropes course on site would be a great advantage to these students. I know that during my years in school, I was able to facilitate everything from adjudicated youth to corporate managers to my own peers, and that having this experience in a safe learning environment has made me much more comfortable and willing to lead on a ropes course now that I am out in the professional world.

Listing all of those populations bring me to my other point. Is there a reason you are primarily (or solely) interested in corporate groups? In the time I was at school, I probably only worked with one to two corporate groups. However, I found plenty of chances to work with adjudicated youth, student leadership organizations, church groups, and athletic teams. I would say that many of your best potential revenue generators are right there on campus. Even at a small school you would have a student government, academic clubs, student publications staffs, academic departments, and a number of athletic teams that could all be brought to the course with the right marketing. From there, the surrounding community is a great resource before ever having to contend with whether or not corporate groups will travel over 200 miles for a day on your course. One of the common groups we saw was local high school student governments or college prep programs. The Dept. of Juvenile Justice was our other very common group. We had it worked into their pre-trial intervention program that completing our ropes course experience was a requirement for staying out of jail and getting a second chance. Of course, this takes some relationship building over time, but it guaranteed a consistent group every couple of months and brought in some money on a regular basis.

Hopefully this has been some help. Maybe some more information about your specific location or situation would help shed some light for others to respond as well.

Hey Bobcat,
 

I'll start by saying that I don't have any cold hard data for you on the current status of corporate funding or willingness to utilize ropes courses for development. I do have a few potential thoughts for you though....
 

It sounds like you either attend/instruct at a university program that is developing new adventure educators. In my opinion, having a ropes course on site would be a great advantage to these students. I know that during my years in school, I was able to facilitate everything from adjudicated youth to corporate managers to my own peers, and that having this experience in a safe learning environment has made me much more comfortable and willing to lead on a ropes course now that I am out in the professional world.
 

Listing all of those populations bring me to my other point. Is there a reason you are primarily (or solely) interested in corporate groups? In the time I was at school, I probably only worked with one to two corporate groups. However, I found plenty of chances to work with adjudicated youth, student leadership organizations, church groups, and athletic teams. I would say that many of your best potential revenue generators are right there on campus. Even at a small school you would have a student government, academic clubs, student publications staffs, academic departments, and a number of athletic teams that could all be brought to the course with the right marketing. From there, the surrounding community is a great resource before ever having to contend with whether or not corporate groups will travel over 200 miles for a day on your course. One of the common groups we saw was local high school student governments or college prep programs. The Dept. of Juvenile Justice was our other very common group. We had it worked into their pre-trial intervention program that completing our ropes course experience was a requirement for staying out of jail and getting a second chance. Of course, this takes some relationship building over time, but it guaranteed a consistent group every couple of months and brought in some money on a regular basis.
 

Hopefully this has been some help. Maybe some more information about your specific location or situation would help shed some light for others to respond as well.

From: Bobcat22 <bounce-Bobcat22@outdoored.com>
Sent: 2/20/2010 1:12:01 AM

I'm interested in hearing information about the market these days for corporate adventure training programs, also known as EBTD (Experience-Based Training and Development). My college is considering building a ropes course to support the adventure education academic program, and we're wondering how realistic it is to assume that a ropes course could also be a revenue generator for the college.
 

So, does anyone have information about the following?
 

 

• With the current economy, has there been a decrease (or increase) in corporate training and travel budgets and, therefore, a decrease (or increase) in corporate groups using ropes courses for their training needs?
• To what extent are corporate groups using ropes courses for their training needs, compared to other experiential activities that could be conducted in a meeting room?
• To what extent are corporate groups likely to travel over 200 miles for their training needs?
  

 

Thanks.

Bobcat, Brad makes lots of excellent points.
 
A few additional suggestions. Yes, I do think corporate training budgets have decreased. The EBTD folks would know that better than I. The other things to think about in thinking about corporate markets is what is the market – what large corporations are near you campus? Unless you can offer lodging, meals and conference facilities anything you do is likely to be a ½ to 1 day program only so 200 miles is too far. The other thing to do is think of what other professional team building providers are in your area. If you have significant professional competition it is unlikely that you will be able to compete except with smaller local companies in part because the typical level of processing sophistication that college-based programs can offer isn’t at the level that a regular EBTD company can provide.
 
Rick
 
____________________
Rick Curtis
Director, Outdoor Action
Princeton University
609-258-5621
www.princeton.edu/~oa/ <http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/>
P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail.

Bob, you might talk with Todd Miner at Cornell. They built a $100K+ plus course about 10 years ago with the idea of corporate use as a significant funding source. It’s always easy for someone else to suggest these huge markets to pay for things when the market isn’t really there. Good luck with it
 
Rick
 
 
----------------------
Rick Curtis
Director, Outdoor Action
Princeton University

From my experience starting courses on two campuses…
 
·        It is a capital expense.

·        It will not pay itself off.

·        Manager salary will not be recovered.

·        It will cost an additional $2500/year for inspections, supplies, repairs, upgrades.

·        Staff need to be paid in credit, wages, or both.

·        Staff training and evaluation are real costs of 30 hours per staff per year, minimum.

·        Good news is you can recover the last three with fees.

A challenge course on a remote campus is an investment in good education for the students. It is equivalent to building a chemistry lab. If you are teaching adventure/experiential education, it will be as good as teaching chemistry without the lab.
 

Francis Morgan
francismmg@hotmail.com
509-338-5563
5435 6th Avenue North
Saint Petersburg, FL 33710


From: General Forum [mailto:generalforum@outdoored.com] On Behalf Of Bobcat22
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 8:51 PM
To: francismmg@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [General Forum] Corporate Adventure Programs

Thanks, Rick. I completely agree with you and Brad.

As I responded to Brad, the primary motivation behind a ropes course is to serve as a “lab” for training our adventure education students in processing and facilitation strategies, and, of course, the technical skills associated with ropes courses. These students can maybe facilitate some campus and community groups, but not corporate groups.

The reason I asked about corporate groups is that one of the parties interested in seeing a ropes course happen here is suggesting that it could be paid for largely with some high-paying corporate groups. However, we are hundreds of miles from any large corporations, and hard to get to by air, so I think the campus and community groups Brad mentioned are a more realistic revenue source, but I’m not at all sure this can be counted on to (1) build a course to the tune of $75,000 to $100,000, and (2) completely subsidize annual expenses which can be another $75,000 per year for a staff position, inspections, maintenance, etc.

Your points about the corporate market and needs confirm what I had thought.

With budget cuts a reality, I need to show, essentially, that a ropes course won’t cost the institution any money, and maybe even bring in some net revenue. So, we will need to make decisions that are informed by market analysis.

---

Bob Stremba, Ed.D.
Professor and Director, Adventure Education Program
Fort Lewis College
Durango, Colorado  81301 USA

Home Email: bstremba@together.net

Office email: stremba_b@fortlewis.edu
Office phone: (970) 247-6295




On 2/22/10 8:49 AM, "Rick Curtis" <bounce-Rick_Curtis@outdoored.com> wrote:
Bobcat, Brad makes lots of excellent points.
 
A few additional suggestions. Yes, I do think corporate training budgets have decreased. The EBTD folks would know that better than I. The other things to think about in thinking about corporate markets is what is the market – what large corporations are near you campus? Unless you can offer lodging, meals and conference facilities anything you do is likely to be a ½ to 1 day program only so 200 miles is too far. The other thing to do is think of what other professional team building providers are in your area. If you have significant professional competition it is unlikely that you will be able to compete except with smaller local companies in part because the typical level of processing sophistication that college-based programs can offer isn’t at the level that a regular EBTD company can provide.
 
Rick
 
____________________
Rick Curtis
Director, Outdoor Action
Princeton University
609-258-5621
www.princeton.edu/~oa/ <http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/>
P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail.

Perhaps a little late into the conversation, but as our campus is similar to yours...  We are located about 70 miles due East of Yellowstone and 100 miles south of Billings, MT, (right outside of Cody, WY) so are similar in the instance to a long way from any corporate programming and/or easy access to our courses.  With that said, while we do not have the influx of programming that many campuses do, we tend to pull some "corporate" programming from local industries such as the hospitals, USFS Fire Crews, etc.  Not that these are large entities with funding to help off-set the building and operational budgets, but as mentioned, help through fees.  We just had a new course constructed this past fall at our field station and it is pretty well understood the basis of the facility is for the educational purpose and was built with major maint. funding from the college/state.  (In reality, we had a course at that location, but it was extremely old, most of the trees were killed by beetles, etc., so it was more of a maint. then a new course for the college.)

Especially with that course, which is snowed in 8 months of the year, we are hoping to see an increase in summer programming, but along with that course and the course on campus, they are very much seen as educational tools and funded as such.  It is expected that the fees brought in from programming offset the operational expenses (i.e. facilitator salaries, equipment, maintenance, and so forth) but it does not cover the entirety, nor the added insurance cost, the college is willing to pick up that end for us fortunately because it does provide a classroom for students and hands on "real-life" education, as well as a vital tool for many schools and organizations within the region.  One way of overcoming some funding hurtles is that payment for the management of the course is done through Faculty Load Equivalency, i.e. 3 less credits of faculty load for the year.

One avenue to go for selling the course to the school for revenue is if you have a similar program to our Center for Training and Development, they will bring corporate programming, and the school loves that many students are able to work with these groups.  We are also very close with other corporate training programs in the area, and for instance will be hosting three days in August for 90 South Korean teachers/students (as well as providing rafting and climbing).  That seems to be a big sell for programming, as are town and county rec. districts.  From our standpoint, the biggest user groups are middle and high schools from the region and Montana.  We do not see too many groups from the college as budgets seem to preclude usage, but have worked in some instances where athletes were registered for a class that was specifically for them to do teambuilding throughout the first part of the season for them.

Outside of major maintenance, management salary (FL equiv), and insurance, we are budgeted approximately $8000 a year for facilitator salary (which we always go over, but it is understood that each program fee covers that cost) equipment, travel, inspection and printing.  That typically just holds us, and we will bring in about that same amount or more.  In the end if you do not include the insurance aspect, we break even, though we do not "have to" since it is a college funded program.  They just like it when we do.

Not sure if that helps at all, but just a little information.  I have a feeling the demographics are similar for locations.  And since we do not have the large industry centers near us either, we rely mainly on local groups, which is always a good selling point when the college looks at budget cuts.  Many schools we recruit students from rely on the challenge course program at the college, even though many of the schools have their own courses, they bring their classes here each year.

Keith McCallister
Asst. Professor
Director DELTA
Northwest College
www.northwestcollege.edu/outdoor

Perhaps a little late into the conversation, but as our campus is similar to yours...  We are located about 70 miles due East of Yellowstone and 100 miles south of Billings, MT, (right outside of Cody, WY) so are similar in the instance to a long way from any corporate programming and/or easy access to our courses.  With that said, while we do not have the influx of programming that many campuses do, we tend to pull some "corporate" programming from local industries such as the hospitals, USFS Fire Crews, etc.  Not that these are large entities with funding to help off-set the building and operational budgets, but as mentioned, help through fees.  We just had a new course constructed this past fall at our field station and it is pretty well understood the basis of the facility is for the educational purpose and was built with major maint. funding from the college/state.  (In reality, we had a course at that location, but it was extremely old, most of the trees were killed by beetles, etc., so it was more of a maint. then a new course for the college.)


Especially with that course, which is snowed in 8 months of the year, we are hoping to see an increase in summer programming, but along with that course and the course on campus, they are very much seen as educational tools and funded as such.  It is expected that the fees brought in from programming offset the operational expenses (i.e. facilitator salaries, equipment, maintenance, and so forth) but it does not cover the entirety, nor the added insurance cost, the college is willing to pick up that end for us fortunately because it does provide a classroom for students and hands on "real-life" education, as well as a vital tool for many schools and organizations within the region.  One way of overcoming some funding hurtles is that payment for the management of the course is done through Faculty Load Equivalency, i.e. 3 less credits of faculty load for the year.


One avenue to go for selling the course to the school for revenue is if you have a similar program to our Center for Training and Development, they will bring corporate programming, and the school loves that many students are able to work with these groups.  We are also very close with other corporate training programs in the area, and for instance will be hosting three days in August for 90 South Korean teachers/students (as well as providing rafting and climbing).  That seems to be a big sell for programming, as are town and county rec. districts.  From our standpoint, the biggest user groups are middle and high schools from the region and Montana.  We do not see too many groups from the college as budgets seem to preclude usage, but have worked in some instances where athletes were registered for a class that was specifically for them to do teambuilding throughout the first part of the season for them.


Outside of major maintenance, management salary (FL equiv), and insurance, we are budgeted approximately $8000 a year for facilitator salary (which we always go over, but it is understood that each program fee covers that cost) equipment, travel, inspection and printing.  That typically just holds us, and we will bring in about that same amount or more.  In the end if you do not include the insurance aspect, we break even, though we do not "have to" since it is a college funded program.  They just like it when we do.


Not sure if that helps at all, but just a little information.  I have a feeling the demographics are similar for locations.  And since we do not have the large industry centers near us either, we rely mainly on local groups, which is always a good selling point when the college looks at budget cuts.  Many schools we recruit students from rely on the challenge course program at the college, even though many of the schools have their own courses, they bring their classes here each year.


Keith McCallister
Asst. Professor
Director DELTA
Northwest College
www.northwestcollege.edu/outdoor

From: Bobcat22 <bounce-Bobcat22@outdoored.com>
Sent: 2/22/2010 11:37:08 PM
Thanks, Francis. You’ve succinctly confirmed my concerns and provided useful perspectives for me to include in our planning.
 
 
 

---

Bob Stremba, Ed.D.
 Professor and Director, Adventure Education Program
 Fort Lewis College
 Durango, Colorado  81301 USA
 
 Home Email: bstremba@together.net
 
 Office email: stremba_b@fortlewis.edu
 Office phone: (970) 247-6295
 
 
 

 On 2/22/10 7:56 PM, "Francis Morgan-Gallo" <bounce-francismmg@outdoored.com> wrote:
 
 

From my experience starting courses on two campuses…
  
 ·        It is a capital expense.
 
·        It will not pay itself off.
 
·        Manager salary will not be recovered.
 
·        It will cost an additional $2500/year for inspections, supplies, repairs, upgrades.
 
·        Staff need to be paid in credit, wages, or both.
 
·        Staff training and evaluation are real costs of 30 hours per staff per year, minimum.
 
·        Good news is you can recover the last three with fees.
 
A challenge course on a remote campus is an investment in good education for the students. It is equivalent to building a chemistry lab. If you are teaching adventure/experiential education, it will be as good as teaching chemistry without the lab.
  
 
Francis Morgan
 francismmg@hotmail.com
 509-338-5563
 5435 6th Avenue North
 Saint Petersburg, FL 33710
 
 
From: General Forum [mailto:generalforum@outdoored.com] On Behalf Of Bobcat22
 Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 8:51 PM
 To: francismmg@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [General Forum] Corporate Adventure Programs
 
 Thanks, Rick. I completely agree with you and Brad.
 
 As I responded to Brad, the primary motivation behind a ropes course is to serve as a “lab” for training our adventure education students in processing and facilitation strategies, and, of course, the technical skills associated with ropes courses. These students can maybe facilitate some campus and community groups, but not corporate groups.
 
 The reason I asked about corporate groups is that one of the parties interested in seeing a ropes course happen here is suggesting that it could be paid for largely with some high-paying corporate groups. However, we are hundreds of miles from any large corporations, and hard to get to by air, so I think the campus and community groups Brad mentioned are a more realistic revenue source, but I’m not at all sure this can be counted on to (1) build a course to the tune of $75,000 to $100,000, and (2) completely subsidize annual expenses which can be another $75,000 per year for a staff position, inspections, maintenance, etc.
 
 Your points about the corporate market and needs confirm what I had thought.
 
 With budget cuts a reality, I need to show, essentially, that a ropes course won’t cost the institution any money, and maybe even bring in some net revenue. So, we will need to make decisions that are informed by market analysis.
   

---

Bob Stremba, Ed.D.
 Professor and Director, Adventure Education Program
 Fort Lewis College
 Durango, Colorado  81301 USA
 
 Home Email: bstremba@together.net
 
 Office email: stremba_b@fortlewis.edu
 Office phone: (970) 247-6295
 
 
 

 On 2/22/10 8:49 AM, "Rick Curtis" <bounce-Rick_Curtis@outdoored.com> wrote:
 Bobcat, Brad makes lots of excellent points.
  
 A few additional suggestions. Yes, I do think corporate training budgets have decreased. The EBTD folks would know that better than I. The other things to think about in thinking about corporate markets is what is the market – what large corporations are near you campus? Unless you can offer lodging, meals and conference facilities anything you do is likely to be a ½ to 1 day program only so 200 miles is too far. The other thing to do is think of what other professional team building providers are in your area. If you have significant professional competition it is unlikely that you will be able to compete except with smaller local companies in part because the typical level of processing sophistication that college-based programs can offer isn’t at the level that a regular EBTD company can provide.
  
 Rick
  
 ____________________
 Rick Curtis
 Director, Outdoor Action
 Princeton University
 609-258-5621
 www.princeton.edu/~oa/ <http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/>
 P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail.