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staff and risks for them - can't find a category for this post

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  • Posted by
    on Sat, Dec 11 2010 11:32 AM

    I spent a number of years working in outdoor adventure. It was fun, hard work, I burned out on occasion and now I am paying the price...

    1) Overuse of our bodies can and does come back to haunt us in our 50's and beyond (and for some people when they are younger). I carried way too much weight in backpacks, canoes plus packs, etc. and now my joints are paying the price. They can tell who was a slave in ancient Egypt based on how their bones and joints were trashed. While we were not slaves, we do tend to carry around way too much weight, over use our bodies on occasion (well often actually), get injured in ways that can come back to haunt us (a canoe trailer tongue on my left knee, with a chipped bone and damaged but not completely torn cartilage comes to mind and the current left knee problems I am having that can be traced back to that; x-country skiing on two broken toes -broken on the job- so I could keep my job and issues with them now also come to mind).

    2) Exposure to bat and mice dung... Both can cause diseases in humans. Some lie dormant. I now test positive for Mouse Mammary Tumour Virus. I have had *** cancer twice (once on each side) and now follicular lymphoma. That virus has been implicated in both kinds of cancer (*** and non hodgkin's lymphoma of which there are a number of kinds), especially when you have had both. Memories of mice running over me sleeping in the mouth of a cave, or mice in our food, our living quarters on a regular basis come to mind as possible exposure points.

    3) Excess sun exposure causes skin cancer, earlier cataracts...

    4) Chronic under nutrition in some portion of each month, including insufficient veggies, not enough calcium, etc. as students mismanage food, what we pack due to storage/weight issues doesn't completely meet nutritional standards... The insufficient calcium is going to haunt people later as the 20' and 30's are the prime time to build bone density and while weight bearing exercise does this you ALSO need enough calcium in your diet. While it won't hurt a student to do this for 3 or 4 weeks, it can hurt staff to do this month after month. Chronic under nutrition, even when mild, causes other problems.

    5) Risk of poverty in your old age - Outdoor programs need to help staff plan for retirement. The pay is so poor that saving for retirement while you are doing this seems out of reach. The consequences are living in poverty when you are older. You can't get back time and how that contributes to the growth of retirement savings. Low pay also means lower social security payouts at the other end.

    6) Lack of health insurance while working as an instructor. This means we are less likely to treat problems and that may haunt us later.

    When we are younger our bodies can tolerate a lot of abuse. Our jobs are generally fun. The problem is that these things can come back to haunt us later. Programs need to have a risk plan for staff that includes taking into consideration these issues.

    Carolyn
  • Posted by
    on Sat, Dec 11 2010 12:40 PM
    Carolyn:
    Your post brings up a rarely discussed aspect of our field, and one that puts into perspective what we frequently ask of our practitioners.   it certainly raises the question of whether our many programs which hire our young people and then take advantage of the fact that they love what they do, by paying them nothing, are in fact immoral.  The argument will come back  that many programs  could not exist without  this exploitive subsidy, and of course, the answer  that comes back is maybe they shouldn't

    Does this not argue powerfully for a union or some kind of guild for practitioners?

    I am getting older as well, but fortunately, I was in a position which allowed me adequate compensation and benefits, but I am well aware that I am an exception

    Regards,

    Tom















    Tom Lindblade
    President and Safety Chair, Illinois Paddling Council,
    Board Member: Association for Experiential Education,
    Website: http://www.hauntedbywaters.com
    815-963-5945
    ____________________________________________
    "Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it. .......I am haunted by waters" -- N. MacLean
    ____________________________________________



    --- On Sat, 12/11/10, carolynb <bounce-carolynb@outdoored.com> wrote:

    From: carolynb <bounce-carolynb@outdoored.com>
    Subject: [Risk Management Forum] staff and risks for them - can't find a category for this post
    To: lindbladet@sbcglobal.net
    Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 10:36 AM

    I spent a number of years working in outdoor adventure. It was fun, hard work, I burned out on occasion and now I am paying the price...

    1) Overuse of our bodies can and does come back to haunt us in our 50's and beyond (and for some people when they are younger). I carried way too much weight in backpacks, canoes plus packs, etc. and now my joints are paying the price. They can tell who was a slave in ancient Egypt based on how their bones and joints were trashed. While we were not slaves, we do tend to carry around way too much weight, over use our bodies on occasion (well often actually), get injured in ways that can come back to haunt us (a canoe trailer tongue on my left knee, with a chipped bone and damaged but not completely torn cartilage comes to mind and the current left knee problems I am having that can be traced back to that; x-country skiing on two broken toes -broken on the job- so I could keep my job and issues with them now also come to mind).

    2) Exposure to bat and mice dung... Both can cause diseases in humans. Some lie dormant. I now test positive for Mouse Mammary Tumour Virus. I have had *** cancer twice (once on each side) and now follicular lymphoma. That virus has been implicated in both kinds of cancer (*** and non hodgkin's lymphoma of which there are a number of kinds), especially when you have had both. Memories of mice running over me sleeping in the mouth of a cave, or mice in our food, our living quarters on a regular basis come to mind as possible exposure points.

    3) Excess sun exposure causes skin cancer, earlier cataracts...

    4) Chronic under nutrition in some portion of each month, including insufficient veggies, not enough calcium, etc. as students mismanage food, what we pack due to storage/weight issues doesn't completely meet nutritional standards... The insufficient calcium is going to haunt people later as the 20' and 30's are the prime time to build bone density and while weight bearing exercise does this you ALSO need enough calcium in your diet. While it won't hurt a student to do this for 3 or 4 weeks, it can hurt staff to do this month after month. Chronic under nutrition, even when mild, causes other problems.

    5) Risk of poverty in your old age - Outdoor programs need to help staff plan for retirement. The pay is so poor that saving for retirement while you are doing this seems out of reach. The consequences are living in poverty when you are older. You can't get back time and how that contributes to the growth of retirement savings. Low pay also means lower social security payouts at the other end.

    6) Lack of health insurance while working as an instructor. This means we are less likely to treat problems and that may haunt us later.

    When we are younger our bodies can tolerate a lot of abuse. Our jobs are generally fun. The problem is that these things can come back to haunt us later. Programs need to have a risk plan for staff that includes taking into consideration these issues.

    Carolyn




    Generated from the Outdoor Ed Community online Forums www.outdoored.com/community
  • Posted by
    on Sat, Dec 11 2010 1:26 PM
    In my mind it should not be the practitioners who need to force change (although I say that from the point of view of someone who was involved with the group trying to force outward bound to allow field staff to buy health insurance, something they ultimately allowed) RATHER an ETHICAL and RESPONSIBLE program management should take issues like these into consideration when designing staff working conditions, benefits, etc. THEN a union would not be needed. This kind of change should not have to be forced. If we actually practiced what we preached as management, this would be automatic. And while not all management feel this way, I am not so sure that "the field staff aren't worth the paperwork, there are so many of them and they change jobs so frequently" mentality (by the way this is a direct quote from one well known, otherwise thought highly of, school director), isn't still the prevalent opinion out there.

    It is the law in the USA that places of business (profit, non-profit, education, camps, etc.) should not put employees at risk; that appropriate safety precautions need to be taken... Until staff sue their place of employment for not proactively trying to protect them from known hazards, I doubt much will change. The line of young people, many of whom think they are immortal (a brain disfunction in terms of judgement common in younger people and some older people LOL) and figure they have time to worry about things later, waiting for jobs in this field is a long line. 

    Carolyn

    From: Tom Lindblade <bounce-lindbladet@outdoored.com>
    To: carolynb3@yahoo.com
    Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:06 AM
    Subject: Re: [Risk Management Forum] staff and risks for them - can't find a category for this post

    Carolyn:
    Your post brings up a rarely discussed aspect of our field, and one that puts into perspective what we frequently ask of our practitioners.   it certainly raises the question of whether our many programs which hire our young people and then take advantage of the fact that they love what they do, by paying them nothing, are in fact immoral.  The argument will come back  that many programs  could not exist without  this exploitive subsidy, and of course, the answer  that comes back is maybe they shouldn't

    Does this not argue powerfully for a union or some kind of guild for practitioners?

    I am getting older as well, but fortunately, I was in a position which allowed me adequate compensation and benefits, but I am well aware that I am an exception

    Regards,

    Tom















    Tom Lindblade
    President and Safety Chair, Illinois Paddling Council,
    Board Member: Association for Experiential Education,
    Website: http://www.hauntedbywaters.com
    815-963-5945
    ____________________________________________
    "Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it. .......I am haunted by waters" -- N. MacLean
    ____________________________________________



    --- On Sat, 12/11/10, carolynb <bounce-carolynb@outdoored.com> wrote:

    From: carolynb <bounce-carolynb@outdoored.com>
    Subject: [Risk Management Forum] staff and risks for them - can't find a category for this post
    To: lindbladet@sbcglobal.net
    Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 10:36 AM

    I spent a number of years working in outdoor adventure. It was fun, hard work, I burned out on occasion and now I am paying the price...

    1) Overuse of our bodies can and does come back to haunt us in our 50's and beyond (and for some people when they are younger). I carried way too much weight in backpacks, canoes plus packs, etc. and now my joints are paying the price. They can tell who was a slave in ancient Egypt based on how their bones and joints were trashed. While we were not slaves, we do tend to carry around way too much weight, over use our bodies on occasion (well often actually), get injured in ways that can come back to haunt us (a canoe trailer tongue on my left knee, with a chipped bone and damaged but not completely torn cartilage comes to mind and the current left knee problems I am having that can be traced back to that; x-country skiing on two broken toes -broken on the job- so I could keep my job and issues with them now also come to mind).

    2) Exposure to bat and mice dung... Both can cause diseases in humans. Some lie dormant. I now test positive for Mouse Mammary Tumour Virus. I have had *** cancer twice (once on each side) and now follicular lymphoma. That virus has been implicated in both kinds of cancer (*** and non hodgkin's lymphoma of which there are a number of kinds), especially when you have had both. Memories of mice running over me sleeping in the mouth of a cave, or mice in our food, our living quarters on a regular basis come to mind as possible exposure points.

    3) Excess sun exposure causes skin cancer, earlier cataracts...

    4) Chronic under nutrition in some portion of each month, including insufficient veggies, not enough calcium, etc. as students mismanage food, what we pack due to storage/weight issues doesn't completely meet nutritional standards... The insufficient calcium is going to haunt people later as the 20' and 30's are the prime time to build bone density and while weight bearing exercise does this you ALSO need enough calcium in your diet. While it won't hurt a student to do this for 3 or 4 weeks, it can hurt staff to do this month after month. Chronic under nutrition, even when mild, causes other problems.

    5) Risk of poverty in your old age - Outdoor programs need to help staff plan for retirement. The pay is so poor that saving for retirement while you are doing this seems out of reach. The consequences are living in poverty when you are older. You can't get back time and how that contributes to the growth of retirement savings. Low pay also means lower social security payouts at the other end.

    6) Lack of health insurance while working as an instructor. This means we are less likely to treat problems and that may haunt us later.

    When we are younger our bodies can tolerate a lot of abuse. Our jobs are generally fun. The problem is that these things can come back to haunt us later. Programs need to have a risk plan for staff that includes taking into consideration these issues.

    Carolyn




    Generated from the Outdoor Ed Community online Forums www.outdoored.com/community



    Generated from the Outdoor Ed Community online Forums www.outdoored.com/community
  • Posted by
    on Sat, Dec 11 2010 1:27 PM

    In my mind it should not be the practitioners who need to force change (although I say that from the point of view of someone who was involved with the group trying to force outward bound to allow field staff to buy health insurance, something they ultimately allowed) RATHER an ETHICAL and RESPONSIBLE program management should take issues like these into consideration when designing staff working conditions, benefits, etc. THEN a union would not be needed. This kind of change should not have to be forced. If we actually practiced what we preached as management, this would be automatic. And while not all management feel this way, I am not so sure that "the field staff aren't worth the paperwork, there are so many of them and they change jobs so frequently" mentality (by the way this is a direct quote from one well known, otherwise thought highly of, school director), isn't still the prevalent opinion out there.
    It is the law in the USA that places of business (profit, non-profit, education, camps, etc.) should not put employees at risk; that appropriate safety precautions need to be taken... Until staff sue their place of employment for not proactively trying to protect them from known hazards, I doubt much will change. The line of young people, many of whom think they are immortal (a brain disfunction in terms of judgement common in younger people and some older people LOL) and figure they have time to worry about things later, waiting for jobs in this field is a long line. 
    Carolyn
  • Posted by
    on Sat, Dec 11 2010 1:36 PM
    "...it certainly raises the question of whether our many programs which hire our young people and then take advantage of the fact that they love what they do, by paying them nothing, are in fact immoral.  The argument will come back  that many programs  could not exist without  this exploitive subsidy, and of course, the answer  that comes back is maybe they shouldn't..."
     
     
    I have heard this belief stated for many years, and at one time voiced it very strongly myself. Nowadays, I have come to find that perspective to be fairly conspiratorial in tone, as though program managers are preying upon the naivete and inexperience of youth.
     
    I do agree that wage levels for committed, experienced outdoor professionals are far below what they should be- as is the case with teachers, EMS workers, and others who provide invaluable contributions to our society. However, I have come to believe that wage levels in the outdoor/experiential/adventure education industry has far more to do with a status quo that is driven primarily by the market- that is, our participants, and what they are willing to pay for the activities that we provide. Ironically, as an industry, we seem to have created the issue of wages and professional sustainability for ourselves- there is a relatively common cost per day that the market has come to expect for our activities, and program managers strive to do all they can to match that cost, trying to remain competitive with other similar programs. Wage increases have occurred over the years, but only incrementally, driven by cost of living increases and greater expectations & needs of field staff.

    Concurrently, the expectations of field staff have a strong influence, too- the fact is, at least 2/3's of practitioners of any kind of outdoor/experiential/adventure education (that stat is a SWAG analysis, by the way) are <30, single, and transient- this kind of work fits in perfectly with the life experience and explorative nature of that profile, and their needs are fairly minimal. Many/most of these field staff live quite happily on $20K/year or less, and at that point in life, the lifestyle is at least as important as the $.
     
    I am a 'lifer' in this industry, to be sure, and have come to realize and accept that it is primarily my own choice that keeps me here. I could certainly make far better wages in other industries, but I remain here not because there is an outside influence that limits my potential elsewhere, but because this work provides personal and professional fulfillment  that is unique to this world, and I accept it on the terms it has to offer. I'll let you know if/when this changes.

    _________________________________________
    John Jacobs
    Adventure Risk Management
    PO Box 1160
    Idyllwild, California  92549
    www.adventureriskmanagement.com
    jjacobs@adventureriskmanagement.com
    951.659.4090
    951.659.4091 fax

    Adventure, Smarter.

     
     
    Click to show quoted text
    Carolyn:
    Your post brings up a rarely discussed aspect of our field, and one that puts into perspective what we frequently ask of our practitioners.   it certainly raises the question of whether our many programs which hire our young people and then take advantage of the fact that they love what they do, by paying them nothing, are in fact immoral.  The argument will come back  that many programs  could not exist without  this exploitive subsidy, and of course, the answer  that comes back is maybe they shouldn't

    Does this not argue powerfully for a union or some kind of guild for practitioners?

    I am getting older as well, but fortunately, I was in a position which allowed me adequate compensation and benefits, but I am well aware that I am an exception

    Regards,

    Tom















    Tom Lindblade
    President and Safety Chair, Illinois Paddling Council,
    Board Member: Association for Experiential Education,
    Website: http://www.hauntedbywaters.com
    815-963-5945
    ____________________________________________
    "Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it. .......I am haunted by waters" -- N. MacLean
    ____________________________________________



    --- On Sat, 12/11/10, carolynb <bounce-carolynb@outdoored.com> wrote:

    From: carolynb <bounce-carolynb@outdoored.com>
    Subject: [Risk Management Forum] staff and risks for them - can't find a category for this post
    To: lindbladet@sbcglobal.net
    Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 10:36 AM

    I spent a number of years working in outdoor adventure. It was fun, hard work, I burned out on occasion and now I am paying the price...

    1) Overuse of our bodies can and does come back to haunt us in our 50's and beyond (and for some people when they are younger). I carried way too much weight in backpacks, canoes plus packs, etc. and now my joints are paying the price. They can tell who was a slave in ancient Egypt based on how their bones and joints were trashed. While we were not slaves, we do tend to carry around way too much weight, over use our bodies on occasion (well often actually), get injured in ways that can come back to haunt us (a canoe trailer tongue on my left knee, with a chipped bone and damaged but not completely torn cartilage comes to mind and the current left knee problems I am having that can be traced back to that; x-country skiing on two broken toes -broken on the job- so I could keep my job and issues with them now also come to mind).

    2) Exposure to bat and mice dung... Both can cause diseases in humans. Some lie dormant. I now test positive for Mouse Mammary Tumour Virus. I have had *** cancer twice (once on each side) and now follicular lymphoma. That virus has been implicated in both kinds of cancer (*** and non hodgkin's lymphoma of which there are a number of kinds), especially when you have had both. Memories of mice running over me sleeping in the mouth of a cave, or mice in our food, our living quarters on a regular basis come to mind as possible exposure points.

    3) Excess sun exposure causes skin cancer, earlier cataracts...

    4) Chronic under nutrition in some portion of each month, including insufficient veggies, not enough calcium, etc. as students mismanage food, what we pack due to storage/weight issues doesn't completely meet nutritional standards... The insufficient calcium is going to haunt people later as the 20' and 30's are the prime time to build bone density and while weight bearing exercise does this you ALSO need enough calcium in your diet. While it won't hurt a student to do this for 3 or 4 weeks, it can hurt staff to do this month after month. Chronic under nutrition, even when mild, causes other problems.

    5) Risk of poverty in your old age - Outdoor programs need to help staff plan for retirement. The pay is so poor that saving for retirement while you are doing this seems out of reach. The consequences are living in poverty when you are older. You can't get back time and how that contributes to the growth of retirement savings. Low pay also means lower social security payouts at the other end.

    6) Lack of health insurance while working as an instructor. This means we are less likely to treat problems and that may haunt us later.

    When we are younger our bodies can tolerate a lot of abuse. Our jobs are generally fun. The problem is that these things can come back to haunt us later. Programs need to have a risk plan for staff that includes taking into consideration these issues.

    Carolyn




    Generated from the Outdoor Ed Community online Forums www.outdoored.com/community



    Generated from the Outdoor Ed Community online Forums www.outdoored.com/community

    _________________________________________ John Jacobs Adventure Risk Management PO Box 1160 Idyllwild, CA 92549 951.659.4090 Adventure, Smarter.
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